Good evening everybody, this Marty from Dawgs Blog with Tonight’s podcast on October 24, 2018. just a quick note the poll that I recently put up. Do you think it’s unfair to call Kirk Bunch and ass****? It’s turned into a neck and neck race. A quick summary is: he deserves it – 45%, it’s unfair to call Kirk Bunch an ass**** – 39%, he’s a great guy – 13% (now there’s been a big surge today) no, they don’t think it’s unfair – 3%, other – 1% and there’s a few comments are made. This post going to run for about another week. We have over 1200 votes and already and it’s getting close. So, let’s see you see what you guys think and let’s have some fun with it.
This afternoon session got started almost right on time. The jury was up at 1:33 PM. The Judge on the bench at 1:34 PM and they were continuing from with Gary Harmer. He’s the DNA expert from the SERI lab in Richmond, California. This guy has a lot of background and a lot of experience. He’s apparently been innovative in the field too. He has been doing it since the late 80s.
Attorney Hans started out the questioning this afternoon and he was talking about the table of resolves. (now they use a lot of terms that I don’t know. What do I know? I’m a dumbass.) the profiling that they’re doing on the DNA samples/results, how they do their mapping of the DNA and all this stuff. He cannot include any of the defendants in any of the known samples that he has. They took buccal samples, which is a cheek swab, of all the defendants from Robert Woody all the way through to the rest of the defendants, there were 9 or 10 altogether. They took those swabs and tested them against all the DNA samples that they had of the bullet, the carabiner and in some of the other things on the clothes. He cannot include any of the defendants in court or any of the other listed defendants that they took samples from. Hans asked him if the prior case that he talked about (Remember that was the case that the father confessed to killing his daughters but they found out somebody else had done it) the samples were sent to the CODIS, something like that, it’s an it’s a FBI database for anybody that’s been convicted of a felony. Anywhere in the country. When they go to prison, they take a buccal sample and work up a profile on them and it’s kept in this database nationwide. For some reason Stanislaus County in this case did not ask that the sample be sent to CODIS for comparisons. This CODIS keeps of the DNA profiles of current inmates, previous inmates and any new inmates coming in that are convicted of a felony. Stanislaus County did not check this database for comparisons. It’s not automatic Mr. Harmer was saying. They have their own criteria for be admitted to CODIS. It has to be a real good sample and they have their own a sampling crew to do it and it’s tested and has to meet certain criteria to be put in that system. So, there are strict guidelines. For some reason Stanislaus County chose not to do that.
Jai Gohel started cross on Mr. Harmer and he talked about the markers that are on the low side. They have markers that are strong markers, that weak markers, a minor contributor, a major contributor; they have different things that they classify things as. But there was no DNA on the bullet that can be matched to any of the three here today on trial–meaning Frank Carson, Daljit Atwal, and Baljit Atwal. He was asked about the CODIS. He has to have a mostly complete profile of an unknown contributor, which is not any of the nine defendants in this case. We’re talk about Robert Woody, Frank Carson, Daljit Atwal, Baljit Atwal, Georgia DeFilippo, Christine DeFilippo, Scott McFarland, and Edward Quintanar. All these people were tested, and they got a warrant to get buccal samples from them. None of their DNA came upon a match in any way shape or form with anything from the crime scene. The only DNA they have is off the remains of Korey Kauffman mostly the carabiner and the bullet. There’s also a complete profile of an unknown contributor. There’s somebody DNA profile that he says is a complete profile, somebody they don’t know who it is and again it was not ran through CODIS.
Marlisa Ferreira on redirect. Dale Lingerfelt had provided the buccal samples, which means he just dropped them off. Cory Brown and received the report report in September 2017. he was asked up to that date did they request any CODIS check? He said that request has to be done prior to his doing any type of DNA workup. Apparently, there is certain criteria that have to be met, certain things that have to be done for it to be allowed to even be considered running it through CODIS.
He is the Executive Director of the SERI lab, he actually developed that lab I believe, and he has an agreement with the San Mateo Sheriff’s Department for taking the samples that were requested to be sent to the FBI and match against the CODIS database. There’s 10 sites that have to be matched for a major profile. They have a lot of different ways of saying things and I didn’t understand all of it. DNA could be contracted on the bullet by passing through the body or some type of other contact. Again, he talked about SERI having the contract with San Mateo and that’s where they send all their samples through to go to the federal database.
He talked about the he inspected the bullet with a visual inspection. He did not use any type of illumination, like a black light or a high intensity light or any other type of illumination. He looked at the boot on the stand when Percy Martinez had a look at the boots on the stand and asked him if he did presumptuous test on the boots. Which he did on everything, even the boots, and it did not show any presumptive test. Which does not mean its human blood, a presumptive test just means it’s blood.
Somebody just sent me a message: a complete profile with this prosecution team that was never sent submitted to CODIS. Bunch and Jacobson were FBI agents at that time. My understanding is Bunch doesn’t have that FBI affiliation anymore, but he did at that time, as did Jacobson. Somebody says this seems to be a total prosecution malice and misconduct. I don’t know why they wouldn’t send it to CODIS. I don’t understand that at all.
So anyway, the presumption test only checks for blood, doesn’t mean it’s human, it means that they’re going to test further, because it could be animal. So, then they check for hemoglobin and the only thing that he tested that showed a positive on was that the top part of the shirt. That shirt was not fully intact, but around the shoulders, the top the shirt, the shoulders and across the chest there was a presumptive test, but it was negative for hemoglobin, so it wasn’t human blood. He also talked about the rest of the shirt was missing from just below the rib cage down. It was either tattered, ripped, or fell victim to the elements, who knows what happened to it.
Percy Martinez’s asked again about that the presumptive test was it pass/fail? It basically is, but a confirmed test will determine if it’s human or not. We just said that the bullet through the body, he asked him, will show positive for DNA? Yes, we just talked about that. Percy Martinez asked if loading a weapon will give contact DNA? (Remember we talked about contact a little bit. Just picking up a pencil could leave contact DNA on that pencil. Somebody else could pick up that contact DNA by picking up that same pencil.) so loading a bullet into a gun, a magazine or a cylinder on a gun could possibly leave contact DNA. he said the markers for the FBI requirements, the markers that he had did qualify for the CODIS. so, what he had so far would have qualified for the FBI CODIS database, he did find the 10 a more markers that they require.
Attorney Hans went back on cross again. He asked him if he was involved in DNA testing since the late 80’s – early 90s? He reviewed the boots and again did presumptive test for blood that was negative. So, there’s no point in him furthering any testing. It could have degraded, the elements could have taken care of it, that’s always a possibility, but nonetheless it didn’t matter.
Jai Gohel went back into cross and he asked about the San Mateo Sheriff’s Department that vets the product and they determine if it qualifies if there’s somebody that request a CODIS check. Again, he emphasized there was no request by the Stanislaus County Sheriff’s Department for a CODIS check on the DNA that was found that the scenes, even though there were major contributors that were not found among the defendants. Korey Kauffman showed up in some of the testing, but there was another major contributor, an unknown person. Still to this day have not submitted that to CODIS.
I thought the DNA expert was honest and straightforward, he just told it like it is. He didn’t seem to have an agenda or anything else. He was supposed to be in court somewhere else today and he got stuck in this thing.
At the 402 hearing this morning they had a Jean Daly, who is a dog handler that handled the cadaver dog during the search warrants on ninth Street. Her name is Jean Daly and she was called to the stand. They went through some of this in the 402 hearing this morning to determine what she was not be allowed to testify. The defense listened to what she had to say and said we’ve got no problem with her testifying. they went into qualifications of her and the dog it was rather lengthy and tedious. In 2012 she was volunteering a with her dog Rio. So, whenever I say Rio, that’s who I’m referring to. It’s her dog, and he’s an Australian Shepherd. She started training in 2005, when she first got the dog. The dog and her went through a lot of private training. she trained for a year and then and then did apprenticeship for about a year just to get qualifications go the next level of searches. I’m not going all the details but basically in a nutshell that’s how it works. So, they do trailing – they teaching the dog to take a scent track the trail of a person. They have the person walk away several hours before they give the dog a scent and then they have to track the person in the woods and all kinds of places. So, then she trained to be a cadaver dog to look for body parts, remains, fluids. That was a year-long process with a lot of training involved which included her and her dog Rio. She talked about the exposing the dog to a cadaver scent. The dog was trained to go for the scent of human body, whether it be blood, fluid, semen, pancreas, brain. That’s what the dog is trained to look for. Her training is actually ongoing but was certified as a cadaver dog I believe it was in 2011. There is a massive amount of training and she is a very dedicated person to do that type of training. She’s doing it as a volunteer and then she certified through CARDA, I believe that is the acronym for it and it’s a search and rescue organization and they have different specialties and different dogs.
The cadaver sources that the use is blood. Buried cadaver scent that means it could be just a hand, a finger, a foot, leg, a body, any part of a body that’s buried underground up to 15 inches. They are also trained for hanging remains if you have somebody hanging from a tree the dog is taught to track and search for hanging this way. She says the cells come off the body similar to like smoke comes up out of a fire and it will dissipate and move around. So, it depends on the environment, moisture, the wind and different things can affect how the dog finds tracks or reacts. She said the scents of the bodies are always there. Actually, I don’t believe that she’s an expert in this area, she’s probably just a trainer of a dog, I’m not sure she is an expert talking about scents of the bodies. The dog will not react to a dead animal. They’re trained to ignore animals. They’re only trained to detect human beings and again as blood, saliva, semen, arm, brain matter, pancreas, internal organs, skin, etc. The dog is only trained for human beings, nothing else. The handler also has to trained in physical fitness, first-aid, CPR, use of radio transmissions, they have to be trained on proper radio procedures to be able to be clear and concise what they’re saying on the radio and to be sure that they’re not talking over the top of somebody else. She was certified in tracking in 2007, as was the dog. She was certified in tracking and scent in 2007. she is also certified after doing a year of walk-throughs observing crime scenes.
She was called out to do a search at 838 9th St. On July 15, 2012. She is dispatched through CARDA, that’s the animal rescue association. There was a second dog and handler out there. The other dog out there searching along with Rio was named Molly. She did not recall much about it. There was nothing that the dog hit on. There’s nothing that happened that would draw her attention to this particular search and she was not even clear about the size of the area that she was searching. except for when they went into the barn area, remember what they call the chicken coop and she does remember searching the barn it made an impression. But she doesn’t really recall what she did though when she searches back there, she just knows she searched it.
She said the command to tell the dog to start searching for cadaver material was “Find Charlie”. she said the length of time that the blood is out on the scene, it could be there for years if it hasn’t been interfered with, the dog could detect it.
Sometimes I’m a little confused about some of the things that Marlisa Ferreira says and does. She asked this witness if there had never been a body out on the scene would the cadaver dog detect that a body was not out there? (of course it wouldn’t, I could’ve told her that). The handler on the stand got extremely confused at that question and the jury was sent out for a break.
Judge Zuniga, I’m more and more looking at the looks on Judge Zuniga’s face when some of the things are going on. She was really looking confused up there. She’s very expressive in her face and she said it did not gets so tangled up in the 402 hearing that they had that morning in regard to this witness. It is not clear to the witness what they want her to testify to.
When they came back we came back from break she asked her if someone was shot and there was no blood on the ground or the body was removed immediately would the dog would not react? So, their theory is Korey Kauffman was killed on March 30, 2012 on the Frank Carson property at 838 9th St. Their theory is, according to Robert Woody, that he was shot now they’re saying twice. Robert Woody testified to my recollection, that there was a lot of blood everywhere. In addition, the fingers and toes were cut off and there was lot of blood everywhere when he cut the fingers and toes off and he put the boots back on the feet. She’s trying to say well he was shot if there’s no blood that the dog wouldn’t key off it.
Percy Martinez when it went into cross and again asked him if somebody was shot and there was blood on the ground on March 30, 2012 and the dog searched on 7/15/2012, which is about 3 ½ months or so later, would Rio react or find that blood that’s in the ground? Especially if it hadn’t been disturbed? And she said yes. She kept saying it kind of over and over again, to her it’s really simple if there’s any type of fluids or remains or anything the dog react up to 15 inches down. if there’s not anything there he won’t react. That’s really how she wanted to put it. Of course, the attorneys are asking a lot more difficult questions than that.
Percy Martinez asked her if Rio keyed on anything? She said no he didn’t, there was no reaction of the dog anywhere on the property on ninth Street.
Attorney Hans started to cross, and he asked about Rio was trained to detect scent, cadaver parts or fluids. Asked if Rio can detect if there’s any fluids remaining if the body had been moved? She said yes, she has very much confidence in her dog. Rio could detect if body or fluids even years later. Remember this search was done about 3 ½ months after their theory date. This led to a sidebar. He did ask if she did a search anywhere else and that’s what led to an objection and a sidebar. Apparently, they can’t talk about that.
She did keep saying that there’s a lot of variables involved in this in and I believe that to be true, but there has to be a body there in the first place regardless. What’s left there after bodies been moved, the dog would still respond to any scents that are left there even after it been moved or buried underground or blood on the ground from where somebody was injured like a gunshot or something. She said it also depends and how much scent and the environmental factors is also an issue. Is there moisture, wind, heat, or cold, it all affects it.
Jai Gohel went to cross again and again talked about her cadaver training and the dog is trained to alert to anything on the surface. One of the trainings they did with her was they took 3 cc of blood and put it on a piece of paper or cloth or bark, whatever they used, and the dog was to track down the blood and the dog cannot be qualified until he does that. Rio was looking for a scent of a dead person, he was not tracking, he was not doing anything else. It was “find Charlie”. It could be buried parts, it could be buried fluids. He’s qualified and trained for buried scents up to 15 inches, remember that the grave at Pop and Cork was about 14 inches deep. Then he asked her if no one got shot, the dog would not alert? She says well, yeah, that’s kind of a no-brainer. So, Jai Gohel was done.
Marlisa Ferreira within re-re-re-direct and again asking about the removal of the body. She’s kind of stuck on that. If there is blood present and the bodies are removed or not removed, either way the Dog was trained to find it. The training was done in an acre lot, so the dog had a full acre that he had the search to find what they’re looking for. The training environment can change how the scent, for example if it’s in a sandy soil it’s more maybe a little more porous and more scent coming through, but if it’s clay and might not be. She says there’s a lot of variables here. She was also asked if she would command her dog to go search for a cadaver in an area that she knew that there was nothing there? Again, asked a question and kind amazed it’s getting asked. How did she know there’s nothing there until she sends the dog out? I mean it just didn’t make sense to me. She was not given a specific area to search that she recalls. She doesn’t recall a lot because it didn’t make an impression on her because she never found anything at all.
Percy Martinez went to cross again. If she deploys the dog “Find Charlie” the dog will react to blood that is there, and Rio was deployed to all areas of the property? She said yes, she did believe that Rio was there to search all areas of the property and nothing was found.
The DA started going to some other questions what factors like blood and clothes and clothing could affect scent. There were objections. The witness is really looking kind of the confused up there to stand right now and so she finally just said no further questions. Nobody else any questions. It was around 3:30PM they didn’t have any more witnesses and this witness was done. So, they called it a day.
It was funny, there was one objection that one the attorney Objected and said it was vague. The witnesses said it sure was vague and it just kinda lit up the room everybody had a chuckle out of that. Marlisa Ferreira even said well okay objection sustained. So, they had a little fun this afternoon.
The dog info is done, and the DNA is done. I have no idea what’s on tap for tomorrow. The jury is coming back at 9 o’clock tomorrow morning.
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