FRANK CARSON ET AL 5-15-2019 (TOM)

FOR ALL THE MARBLES

AFTERNOON SESSION 05/15/2019

WEEK 50, DAY 172

jensen

BY WILLIAM THOMAS JENSEN (TOM)

THE TRIAL RESUMES

DEFENSE IS ALMOST DONE

 

Court resumes today for the first time in two weeks. I do not feel comfortable discussing the reasons why we were off for privacy reasons, so I will avoid doing so. The morning session was held out of the presence of the jury and discussed some of the issues that arose because of our two week break. It was determined by Judge Zuniga that the jury would be instructed to show up at 1:30PM for testimony. I left early for home and returned for the afternoon session.

The afternoon session began at 1:43PM with Dr. Richard Leo on the stand. Marlisa Ferreira continued her cross examination that seems to have no end. On the overhead screen, she shows slides to the jury of statements that Robert Woody made during his March 14, 2014 interview (interrogation.) She starts out by asking Dr. Leo about a statement that Robert Woody made concerning DA Investigator Steve Jacobson telling Robert Woody “Now it is the death penalty.” Dr. Leo states that is an example of a threat. Marlisa Ferreira points out that just prior to that statement, Jacobson had told Robert Woody that Korey Kauffman didn’t deserve to die, and Robert Woody replied, “No he didn’t.” Marlisa Ferreira goes over how Robert Woody had said: “I feel like I’m the fucking one who is going to be blamed when I didn’t fucking do anything.” Marlisa Ferreira goes over another Woody statement when he was complaining about being treated like a “Fucking Animal.” Marlisa Ferreira tries to show that Robert Woody was talking about his jail cell, and how the TV being on loud all the time “Blowed.”

Marlisa Ferreira then goes over another Woody statement from the same interview where Jacobson had told Woody that “They will take you out.” Dr. Leo states that this is an example of scripting. Marlisa Ferreira goes over another Woody statement where he said: “They shoved me into storage.” Marlisa Ferreira goes over a Jacobson statement where he told Woody: “We know you were exploited.” Dr. Leo states that this is an example of contamination and scripting. Marlisa Ferreira goes over a Woody statement where he said that he didn’t even know the month or the day that the alleged murder occurred. Marlisa Ferreira then shows how CHP Officer Domby filled in the details for Robert Woody. We have a side bar. After the side bar, Dr. Leo states that this is an example of contamination and scripting. He states that what CHP Officer Domby did was contamination. At this time, I notice that our “Bathroom Monitor” Russkamp is present in the courtroom. We all feel so protected with his presence in the courtroom. Marlisa Ferreira points out that Robert Woody went on to say what else happened that day. I am thinking at this time that what Marlisa Ferreira is trying to do is clear like mud. It just does not make very much sense to me. Dr. Leo disagrees with what Marlisa Ferreira is trying to do with these statements. Marlisa Ferreira now goes into another statement by Robert Woody that Dr. Leo said was an example of contamination and scripting. It concerned a section where Jacobson was telling Woody: “We are talking about Baljit Athwal hitting Korey Kauffman on his back and ribs.” Marlisa Ferreira tries to show that Robert Woody had spoken about that previously in the interview. Dr. Leo does not agree with Marlisa Ferreira on that point. Marlisa Ferreira goes into another statement by Robert Woody that Dr. Leo had stated was an example of contamination and scripting. It concerned a statement where Woody was told by Jacobson that Baljit Athwal was using his legs and his knees to beat Korey Kauffman, and Woody had replied: “I imagine that.” We have another side bar. Dr. Leo states that he thinks that is an example of scripting, which he describes as “Feeding a theory.”

Marlisa Ferreira now goes into another statement that Dr. Leo had described as an example of contamination and scripting. It concerned Steve Jacobson and CHP Officer Domby suggesting to Robert Woody that Daljit Atwal pulled out a handgun. Marlisa Ferreir gets Dr. Leo to admit that Steve Jacobson several times told Robert Woody that he didn’t want to put words into his mouth.

Marlisa Ferreira now goes into a slide that involved an October 6, 2015 interview of Robert Woody. It concerned CHP Officer Domby telling Woody that what he heard could have been a gun shot. Marlisa Ferreira points out to Dr. Leo that Robert Woody had spoken earlier about hearing a sound, but that he didn’t see any weapons. Marlisa Ferreira goes into another statement by CHP Officer Domby where he told Robert Woody that Baljit Athwal had been seen on the Carson property. Marlisa Ferreira tries to show that Robert Woody had already spoken about Baljit Athwal being on the Carson property. I note that at this time, Marlisa Ferreira has been using Defense Attorney Hans Hjertonsson’s laptop computer to access the transcripts of this interview. Judge Zuniga tells her that she has used Hans’ laptop long enough, and to give it back to Hans. I can see Marlisa Ferreira fanning herself. It seems she is having one of those hot flashes again. Poor baby. Marlisa Ferreira tells Dr. Leo that he has testified that he has his Juris Doctorate Degree and had testified that Robert Woody had made coerced statements. She tries to tell Dr. Leo that coerced statements can’t be used in a court of law. Judge Zuniga sternly tells her: “Don’t go there mam.”

Judge Zuniga then tells Dr. Leo that he had told the jury about the various “Themes” that were used by the investigators that could possibly have caused a false confession. Dr. Leo corrects Marlisa Ferreira by telling her that the various themes is what he calls “Techniques.” Marlisa Ferreira asks Dr. Leo what would constitute a good technique. Dr. Leo states that good techniques would not feed the suspect facts, be coercive, contain threats, or make promises. Dr. Leo testifies that a proper question would not include feeding the suspect the answer. Marlisa Ferreira asks Dr. Leo if he is aware that other people made statements that backed up what Robert Woody had said. Dr. Leo states that he is aware of this. She asks Dr. Leo if he had reviewed the statements that were made by Ronald Cooper, Charlie O’Dell, Scott McFarlane, Eduardo Quintanar, Praveen Singh, Michael Cooley, Ricky Cooley, Eula Keyes, Sabrina Romero, or Kathy Grinnolds. Dr. Leo testifies that he did not review the statements that were made by these people. Dr. Leo admits that wire tapped conversations were not coerced. He states that he did not review the wire taps. Dr. Leo admits that guilty suspects are not always truthful. Marlisa Ferreira asks Dr. Leo if there are personality types that lie without reason. Dr. Leo states that personality types do not relate to telling lies without a reason. Marlisa Ferreira asks Dr. Leo if during his research he had ever seen an interrogation where a suspect was 100% truthful. This gets objected to, and the objection is sustained. She tries to ask this question a different way. This gets objected to again, and the objection is sustained. Marlisa Ferreira tries to get Dr. Leo to admit that the only way to prove a conviction is false is when the DA vacates the conviction or publically states that the conviction was false. Dr. Leo tells Marlisa Ferreira that what she has just said is false. Marlisa Ferreira: “Why is it false?” Dr. Leo: “In my testimony I gave four ways that a conviction can be shown to be false.” Dr. Leo: “The opinion of the DA does not fit into any of these four ways.” It is now time for our 3:00PM break, and we are instructed to not return until 3:30PM. With the jury out of the courtroom, and Dr. Leo out of the courtroom, we go over some issues that were objected to during the previous cross examination.

At 3:30PM, Judge Zuniga tells Hans Hjertonsson that he was correct about one of his arguments. It concerned Dr. Leo not being able to give his opinion on whether a confession or conviction is true or false. It is brought out by Judge Zuniga that if this trial last into July, the entire month of July will be off because of vacation plans that had been previously postponed by two of the jurors. Both of them have cruises that they had to previously re-schedule because of the length of this trial. It is determined that we have 4 weeks and 4 days before July to get this trial finished. Judge Zuniga states that she is going to tell the jury that the last two weeks were off because of an unplanned situation, and this has cause the trial to be totally off schedule. Marlisa Ferreira states that she only has 5 or 6 witnesses that she will call for rebuttal. She tries to tell the judge that she will not take much time to get this done. Judge Zuniga: “You have a terrible record for time estimates.” Judge Zuniga states that she will not mention anything about Frank Carson being sick. Judge Zuniga: “The defense can’t play sympathy.”

At 3:42PM, the jury is brought into the courtroom, and Dr. Leo is put on the stand. She brings out that Dr. Leo last attended police interrogation training in 1993. Dr. Leo states that the interrogation techniques have evolved, but not significantly since 1993. Dr. Leo testifies that he never attended police interrogation technique training locally. Dr. Leo disputes assertions by Marlisa Ferreira that police now use modified versions of the Reed Techniques of interrogation. Dr. Leo testifies that he has never conducted an interrogation with a police officer.

Marlisa Ferreira now tries to attack Dr. Leo’s Doctoral Dissertation. She asks Dr. Leo if he ever identified himself as a police investigator or detective in an interrogation that he had observed. He does not recall this. Marlisa Ferreira goes over a long list of police officers that Dr. Leo had worked with in his observation of interrogations in Oakland, Vallejo, and Hayward. Dr. Leo testifies that he did not have a contract when he worked with these officers. He states that he did not sign a confidentiality agreement when he was doing this training. Dr. Leo states that there was an understanding about the confidentiality with this training. Dr. Leo testifies that proven false confessions result from the four categories that he has testified to earlier. He states that highly probable false confessions are based on the overwhelming evidence of such. Dr. Leo testifies that only a trained researcher can make that determination. He states that he has never worked as a DA, or a judge, or has practiced law. Dr. Leo now admits that in his Doctoral Dissertation he admitted that he had assumed the false identity of a detective one time during his training in interrogations. He admits that his professor had called this unprofessional.

Dr. Leo testifies that he has been retained by the defense since 2017, and has charge between $106,000 and $110,000 for his work. He testifies that he was hired by Daljit Atwal. Dr. Leo admits that most confessions are totally or partially true. We have another side bar. After the side bar, Marlisa Ferreira asks Dr. Leo if he ever asked Robert Woody’s attorney if he could interview him. Dr. Leo: “No.” Marlisa Ferreira then asks Dr. Leo if he interviewed Robert Woody’s family. Dr. Leo: “No.” Marlisa Ferreira: “Are you aware of Robert Woody’s age?” Dr. Leo: “Generally yes.” Dr. Leo testifies that he has conducted training at police departments 50-100 times over the years, and has done training one time with the military. It is now 4:10PM, and the jury and Dr. Leo are sent out of the courtroom until tomorrow at 9:30AM. We discuss a couple of issues and are done for the day.

Sincerely; William Thomas Jensen (Tom)

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2 comments

  1. Right on! Great report Tom. My favorite part was when the DA would ask questions that clearly did more damage to her case than good. Lol, Like when she asks how should questions be asked in regular interegations. Haha…
    “Dr. Leo states that good techniques would not feed the suspect facts, be coercive, contain threats, or make promises. Dr. Leo testifies that a proper question would not include feeding the suspect the answer.”

  2. Dr.a Leo also stated that good questions would be based on real evidence or reliable collaborated statements. Something this prosecution does not have either. Lol This is great!

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